Please note: This transcript was automatically generated. We have reviewed it to ensure it reflects the original conversation, but we may not have caught every transcription error.

Christopher Saldaña: Hi everyone. I'm Chris Saldaña and this is the National Education Policy Center's Talks Education Podcast. In this month's podcast, I'm joined by two guests who bring distinct but complimentary perspectives to one of the most important school finance cases unfolding today. Michael Rebell is a leading expert in civic education and school finance litigation, and a visiting professor at Harvard Law School.

Luisa Sanchez is a student at Boyle County High School in Kentucky, and a member of the Kentucky Student Voice Team. She's also a plaintiff in Kentucky Student Voice v. the Commonwealth of Kentucky, a case challenging the state to deliver on its obligation to provide an adequate education for all students.

In this month's podcast, Luisa and Michael walk us through the Kentucky case and situate it within the longer history of school finance litigation in the United States. For listeners who aren't familiar with K-12 school finance or adequacy cases, can you give a brief overview of what adequacy means in the context of K-12 education and how it has evolved over time? 

Michael Rebell: Wow. I usually spend about a full semester in a law school class explaining that, but I'll try to get it down to two minutes or so. There's a big problem in most states about unequal funding for schools which has to do with the fact that states rely on property taxes and property taxes aren't fair.

 So what happened is really about 50 years ago, some lawyers started going to the state courts and saying, this is unconstitutional. Their kids have a right to an adequate education under the state constitution. Many of these provisions in the state constitutions were written literally a hundred or 200 years ago, and some of them have arcane language and nobody really looked into what they mean.

But we started and I'm one of the lawyers that's been involved in this. We started bringing these cases, bringing to the court's attention, the unfairness of kids in some schools, and usually it's the schools where the kids are from minorities from low-income backgrounds who get the lowest share of state funds for education. Courts understood that, they reacted to it, and the long and the short of it is there have been these litigations in 48 out of the 50 states over the past 50 or so years. Plaintiffs have won a little over 60% of them, which means there's been a lot of court activity in almost two-thirds of the states.

But in some other states, the plaintiffs have lost and the courts haven't been able to ensure an adequate education. 

Christopher Saldaña: So you are both part of a case that is in Kentucky, the Kentucky Student Voice Team vs the Commonwealth of Kentucky, which is notable because it's being led by young people.

In what ways is the case in Kentucky similar to or different from past adequacy litigation? 

Michael Rebell: There was a very strong decision from the Kentucky Supreme Court back in 1989, which was one of the first of these adequacy cases. And the Kentucky Supreme Court really set a precedent that many other courts have cited, have followed, and they very strongly said, kids are entitled to an adequate and equitable education.

And they even spelled out, they defined what an adequate education is, in terms of seven basic capacities. And right after that court decision was announced, the Kentucky legislature and the governor took it seriously. So during the 1990s, we had major education reform in Kentucky. They basically redid the whole education system, spent a lot more money, made it more equitable, made it more adequate.

So that was great. But we're now in 2026, so we're 37 years after this law was, or this constitutional case was decided, and unfortunately for people in Louise's generation, starting around 2008 when there was a big recession, the Kentucky legislature started cutting back on funding. They started cutting back on enforcing the laws that had been passed in the nineties.

And that leads us to the present situation when many students like Louisa have told us that they don't think they're getting an adequate and equitable education, or even if some of them as individuals are, by and large, the system is failing this generation of students. So I think that, in a nutshell, gives you the legal background.

And now you should ask Louisa why she's involved in this case. (Christopher: That's exactly right.) She has really taken the forefront on this. 

Christopher Saldaña: Luisa, tell us a little bit about how you got involved in the case and maybe what your experiences have been so far. 

Luisa Sanchez: Yeah, I can give you an overview of that. So I became involved in the Student Voice Team back in 2023 after finding out that it existed and I emailed our managing partner and was really reeled into the work. And then the first in-person event that I attended was also the first time that I learned about the Rose case and the Rose decision. And so that was like a very pivotal moment for me because it was just the first time learning that I had rights as a student. And also that there were these organizations and advocacy groups across the state, or at least one of them was willing to fight for me and fight for my rights. And so that was very encouraging. And so I instantly wanted to get involved. And then, after learning about it and we decided collectively to become also like organizational plaintiffs. I also made the decision to be an individual plaintiff just because I've had a lot of unique experiences in the education system.

So I came into the US when I was seven and I first immigrated into New York. And so my experience there was extremely supportive, full of resources. And then now I live in rural Kentucky and here I've had to just really had to just fight to get to where I am now. And so I've thought a lot about just what, not only what it means for me and just how unfair it's been for me, but also for other students, for other former ESL students and other immigrants and just how the system is not really built to, to support them, especially when it comes to rural schools. And schools that don't have as many systems built around, like really looking at what their specific needs are and willing to have educators and administrators find specific ways to work with them. And yeah, that motivated me to be an individual plaintiff and, yeah, then we sued the state and that was awesome. And getting to work with the, I'm gonna butcher it so bad, but like the Harvard Youth Policy. Youth Policy Advocacy Lab?

Michael Rebell: Very good. Yeah, she's got it. 

Luisa Sanchez: Okay. That was also really awesome just getting to also, Rachel calls it like Gorilla. Rachel is our managing partner. She calls it Gorilla Social Studies, just because we are not only learning about the Rose case, but we are also getting to be truly civically engaged. And oh my gosh, I like missed a really big part of this whole this whole thing. Okay. So we also, just to support our work within Rose, we led intergenerational forums across the state to assess whether or not Kentucky's, Kentucky was meeting its constitutional promise to an adequate education. And so we talked to community members, to students, and to educational stakeholders all across the state. And we had roundtable discussions and then through that we formed and published a report.

And so through that experience, I was also able to engage with so many different people and just learn from so many Kentuckians about their own perspectives and about their own educational experience. And so that civic engagement was just so enriching for me. And so just all in all, that's to say being a part of the Kentucky Student Voice Team and the Rose work has been just very, like important to my high school journey, and it has really allowed me to grow as a scholar and as a person. 

Christopher Saldaña: That's awesome. Luisa, that's a great segue to my next question, which maybe we can start with you and then move back to Michael. Which is, what are some of the principles and strategies?

You've already started to mention some of this the listening sessions that you did in the report that you worked on. But what are some of the principles and strategies that have guided your approach in preparation for this litigation, maybe during the litigation, and how would you say, for you, your role as a student has informed how you've tried to engage with the work? 

Luisa Sanchez: Yeah, I think on a personal level, I can say that when it comes to like my own educational experiences and like my own grievances, well that's just what it is. Like I can only talk to my own experiences and how those have impacted me personally.

So I think a lot of the times in advocacy, you can, it's easy to fall into the trap of wanting to speak for everyone, and that is sometimes not very helpful. So I think it's important to just be staying grounded to your own beliefs and your own experiences, but also being willing to just listen to other people and just take a step back.

And I know a lot of times when we're giving speeches in, like press conferences we, it's not just me speaking, it's like multiple students and sometimes students are also including their own personal anecdotes about their own education experiences because yes, we can show the research, but getting to showcase the stories, it is a way to just connect more with audiences. And it's important to just know that at the end of the day we are experts in our own experiences and so it's important to not speak over people or just try to represent people in ways that they don't wanna be represented.

Christopher Saldaña: That's awesome. Michael, from a legal perspective, how does, or does the strategy look different? In a case like this where you have youth so engaged in the process. 

Michael Rebell: It's been very exciting for us, and as Louisa mentioned I'm up at Harvard law school and we have a number of law students who work on this case.

They help my colleague, Mike Gregory and me with research and legal analysis, but what's been so exciting is that they also work directly with Louisa and the other high school students. And she mentioned that we have, or they have these hearings around the state that have been going on for a couple of years on all kinds of interesting subjects.

And the way it's worked out and it just it, it evolved over the last couple of years as the law students started meeting the high school students and working with them. But they all worked together and they planned these forums and the KSVT students are the moderators and the speakers at the hearings, and they interview experts and they interview members of the public, but the law students give them backup, give them support, give them monitoring.

And from our point of view, professor Gregory and myself, it's just been fantastic. I've been doing these kinds of litigations for years. And usually we lawyers sit down and figure out what we're gonna do. We may get a couple of law students to work with us, but having this ongoing engagement that we have with the high school students and the law students and they have with each other, has just been incredibly stimulating.

We love this idea of cross-generational, cross-geographic involvements and it's gotten everybody excited and Louisa and a number of the other students have come up and have addressed they, they were guest speakers in a large class for over a hundred Harvard law students a few weeks ago.

 So it's really been an exciting adventure for all of us. 

Christopher Saldaña: Luisa, what's that experience been like? 

Luisa Sanchez: Yeah I didn't attend the last Harvard Law guest lecture, but I was able to attend for the past three years, the class, so that was absolutely surreal. Let's be honest. I first got the opportunity in 2024 and I remember being just like a little sophomore and just being so scared and then so in awe of everything, and it was my first time being on a, on an Ivy League campus.

Just getting to, to feel that, that energy of so many people who, who were so excited to, like students who were excited to learn about our work as a group of advocates. That was so fantastic. Oh my goodness. And I also like vividly recall, just everyone's just rooting for you.

People, the energy is very positive. And so the you can talk about your work in a way that, that you can feel proud of it. And then others also feel proud of the work that you've done. And it's also, it just I just wanna say we're also like a team in Kentucky, and then getting to speak at just this world-renowned institution just goes to show like truly our intergenerational foundation and our youth-led work has just been so monumental and it's been, it's flown out literally to so many spaces and places. And so, yeah, it's just overall great, and it just goes to show like our collaboration and our commitment 

Michael Rebell: I'll just add there, Chris, that from the law students' point of view, they really have loved this experience and beyond we have half a dozen students each semester that work with the KSVT, but we had 125 or so and the class that really we're taking to this.

And it's because legal analysis is very abstract and you spend a lot of time in libraries and to see the people who really are living and benefiting from the work you're trying to do and understanding what's involved when a court issues a decision or the process for trying to get them to issue a decision, and having young people who are so engaged themselves, it's exciting for us. It's exciting for the law students. And I'll just wanna recount one other thing that was personally very significant for me. As I say, I've done a lot of these cases over the years. I've had a lot of press conferences and usually when we've had a press conference and a student-oriented case, the lawyers would tell the press people what the hearing was about what the court decided or what the issues are. And then at the end of our 30 minutes of explaining all the legal issues, we'd say if you want to interview any of the students, they're available. And then a reporter would go up and talk to a student here and there.

But with KSVT, we had a big hearing on what was called a motion to dismiss, which was a very complicated legal hearing. And we had not only our 13 or 14 individual plaintiffs, we had about 50 students showed up to hear this. So they filled the classroom or they filled the courtroom, which got the judge very impressed, I'll say that. But afterwards we came out for this press conference. And my colleague and I were all set to explain what went on in there. And some of the students just said why don't you guys stand on the side in case there are any technical questions, but we can handle this.

So they stood up and one after the other the students not only talked about why they were interested in the case. But they were talking about the legal issues and they were saying the Attorney General is saying, we don't have a right to education. Well, they ought to read the Constitution.

They ought to go back and do their homework about when this law was passed in the 19th century and all. So I was just so impressed. They followed it all. They had studied this stuff. They understood the arguments that the lawyers were making. It was all very impressive and we got much better press coverage 'cause the reporters do love hearing this directly from the students themselves.

Christopher Saldaña: That's another great segue to my next question, which is, Michael, you know all too well that adequacy litigation is fundamentally about education policy and constitutional obligations. But when you think about the way this case is unfolding and the leadership role that students are taking, and Louisa, this is for you too.

What kind of opportunities do you think this kind of case and the way you all are approaching it opens up for things like civic engagement and democratic participation in our public goods. This one being education. 

Michael Rebell: That, that's exactly what is so exciting about this. One of the reasons we focused on Kentucky 'cause we knew this Rose case was really important, and part of the question is whether we were carpetbaggers coming from the northeast, whether there'd be support in Kentucky, whether there'd be interested in it. And we found the Kentucky Student Voice Team. And as you can see, there's been great interest. But one of the things that attracted us about Rose and making it a model case was it focused on civics and civic engagement.

And when I mentioned there are seven capacities that the court outlined in the Rose case, three or four of them had to do with civics. It said kids have a right to learn about economic and social conditions. They have a right to learn about government processes, communications, and they weren't learning enough of this in Kentucky.

So we've really been able to put a focus on those elements of civic education and the fact that despite the Rose case, Kentucky's one of the few states in the country that doesn't require civics courses, but we realize that what the experience has been for the students in KSVT in working on this case has been a dramatic example of civic engagement.

They know more about civics, they know more about how the government works, how the courts work, than any students I know. And you can't get more engaged than that. So it, it’s brought out the importance of student voice and one of the things we're asking the court to do in this case is to set up a process that allows for more student voice in policymaking at the school level, at the school board level.

So it all works together and it's a good illustration of civics and it makes the students understand what they're fighting for. They're fighting for being able to continue and expand what they've been doing and working on this case. 

Luisa Sanchez: Yeah, I can add to that. I know a couple weeks ago a student from Arizona emailed us asking for recommendations as they were trying to implement more youth voice into their school district in Mesa district.

And I met with him and it was and he like told me his ideas and all these things, but I would say like regardless of where, of what you're doing or how you're thinking about youth voice, make sure that you are tethered to the needs of your community and that you deeply know your community and your community's needs, that you know who holds power and how power circulates around your school district, that you're educating yourself, and that you're also helping to hopefully educate others around how the system works.

Because every system is different. Kentucky, again, it's so special that we have Rose that it was the beginning of Rose started here. It was like the birth of Rose. And so that makes it so special. But you can't exactly replicate that in other states, even though obviously other states took inspiration.

And we can see that in history. Regardless just making sure that you know what your community needs so that then you can find ways to foster civic engagement, so that you can find solutions, for instance, if there's, I don't know if is, if stem, there are STEM education inequities in your district, maybe starting a computer drive or a technology drive where students can volunteer their time to help repair computers so that students like meet that gap. You have to think a lot about what issues you, you wanna solve. And it's not easy, but I think if there's any takeaway from what the Kentucky Student Voice Team does is that if you focus like on storytelling, research, policy or litigation, like truly the world is your oyster.

There are so many possibilities. 

Christopher Saldaña: I'm sure there have been challenges. Along the way, both in terms of the legal process and then also Luisa, you're a student now, so I'm sure there are challenges that you've experienced prior to any of this stuff being a part of your life. What sorts of challenges have arisen and how have you all tried to mitigate them?

And maybe we can start with Luisa, some of the challenges that you've faced and how that work or how that experience has informed the work you're doing. And then Michael, maybe we can talk about some of the challenges that have come up in trying to move this litigation forward. 

Luisa Sanchez: Yeah. I can say it's funny, like a really big challenge that has come up like recently is just absences at school and just getting those taken care of, like really minimal, but that's more surface-level and more technical and just it just goes to share like this work, it takes energy and sometimes people just don't understand it. Or even school administrators they're not willing to, to excuse you for it. They're like you still have responsibilities and you know that, that's just their perspective. And so you have to, or I have to work around that. And sometimes that's challenging just because it's just, it takes a lot of energy and just like having to deal with that.

Sometimes it's challenging and then also it's just in a way, just, I don't know, my school environment has always been very unsupportive and that's why I'm an individual plaintiff. It's like not as, not very surprising. But I know because of the lawsuit and just recently because of my work and just doing so many public impressions, sometimes it gets to me, like the public exposure.

It sometimes feels people are watching you even though obviously not everyone's watching you. So sometimes it's important to make sure that like I stay again, like I do this work because I do it for the future generations of Kentuckians who are hopefully gonna benefit from our case if it does, if we do succeed and I hope, and I know we're gonna succeed. And so yeah, that's sometimes challenging. Just navigating, just balancing school and academics and extracurriculars and advocacy and family life. Yeah, sometimes it's difficult. The balancing act of it all. 

Christopher Saldaña: Michael, what about in terms of litigation?

What are some of the challenges that, that you and the team have faced? 

Michael Rebell: So far we've done well, we had this major motion to dismiss, as it's called, where the state comes in and says that your students don't have standing, that it's too political, the court shouldn't get involved with this stuff.

Anyway, we got a very good decision from the judge, although it took him quite a while to write it, and we were all a little on edge after a while. But the biggest problem for us really is the delays, how long the legal process takes. And I know people who are clients, people who are observers wonder why this all takes so long.

It's frustrating for us who are part of it. We won this big motion. We're ready now to start preparing for the trial and bringing the issues to a head and moving the case along. But the other side does have a right now to an appeal and they're appealing on some technical points, and we're trying to find ways to be able to start the trial preparation, even if they have a right to appeal on some of the technical points.

So that's the part of the legal process that's frustrating and difficult to be deal with. Getting in the courtroom and pulling the facts together and having expert witnesses talk about what the problems are -- that's the meat of what we do and we like doing that.

 But a lot of the technical stuff where, I know from the point of view of the Attorney General and the other lawyers that work for the state, part of their job is to find ways to delay things and to drag it out. And especially when we're dealing with students, that becomes an extra difficulty because I think Louisa, you're a senior, right? So you're not gonna be with us next year and we've got to...it's great to meet new young people and work with them and all, but it's also difficult. Someone like Louisa who is involved in this, so knowledgeable and I'm sure she'll keep in touch with us when she's in college and all, and that'll be great.

But we are gonna have to be dealing with a whole new crew of people and takes a lot more energy. And we are from out of town. It's more trips down to Kentucky. I love coming to Kentucky some of the time, but not as much as sometimes we have to. 

Christopher Saldaña: When you both think about, Luisa, you mentioned a student in Arizona who you've been in contact with.

When you think about how folks around the country who care deeply about making sure that kids have the opportunities that they're constitutionally supposed to have, what are, or what recommendations would you give folks who are thinking about advocating for students and for education, public education, and for adequate funding and adequate opportunities.

Luisa Sanchez: I would say don't underestimate young people like truly, I think a lot of the times, especially when it comes to people and adults who have high positions of power, it's like they're, it's like they're constantly trying, I don't know if they're trying to prove it to themselves or to other people that they are deserving of that position, and so they try to, just like step over people, including young people, to try to continue their I guess holding onto that power. But it's like listening to young people and taking a step back and just like humility won't make you lose power. That's what I would say. Also especially if a young person comes to you and they're, they have concerns about youth voice or wanting to be more involved in their district or anything like they've thought about it, like it takes guts to, to do that. And so listen, listen and just guide them and be a mentor because it's, they're, it's, they're gonna thank you for it.

And so, yeah, that's what I would say. And then also, what else? I don't know. I think there should always be ways for people to speak their opinions in ways that are safe and that they feel supported in. And so I think that's the first step. Like I think all institutions should have, like a system where students in some capacity, can speak out about certain things without having to face censorship or backlash. So if you are a stakeholder and there are no systems in place that allow for that type of discourse from young people, then you should really think about implementing that because then that allows for more engagement and more ideas to be discussed. And in general, it just allows for more enriching institutions and systems in general. 

Christopher Saldaña: Michael, what about on the legal side? What sort of recommendations would you give to folks who are looking to advocate and support public schools and students?

Michael Rebell: The main advice we're giving especially to other lawyers who are interested in education reform or civil rights advocacy in general in these somewhat difficult times, the state courts are a rare opportunity. There's been a lot of frustration from the advocacy point of view in dealing with federal courts, the US Supreme Court in particular, which has not been very helpful on education issues in the recent past. But the state courts have been remarkably responsive. They're closer to the people. We do have this positive language in virtually every state constitution, and it is very much worth bringing these cases.

And I mentioned at the beginning that plaintiffs have not succeeded in about 35 or 40% of the states. But it's worth trying again. And I know you are in Wisconsin. I was very impressed that although the plaintiffs lost a big case there a number of years ago, a new case was just filed a couple of weeks ago which has a lot of very creative legal arguments in it.

And I'm hopeful that case is gonna succeed and others where they didn't, they didn't succeed at first; they tried again. And given all the precedents that have built up in other states over the years there are ways of breaking through now. So it is very much worth persevering at the state court level, especially for education reform.

Luisa Sanchez: I do wanna plug our book. 

Michael Rebell: Oh yeah. Go ahead. 

Luisa Sanchez: Yes. So we launched our book titled Why Kentucky Students Are Suing the State and it's available in Amazon for purchase. But you should definitely check it out. I wrote the Foreword and then another one of our team members, also, like all of our team contributed to it.

It's a very much an intergenerational project. And then, yeah, it just breaks down the whole case in very digestible language. And so if you wanna support our team and wanna learn more about this case definitely check it out and drop a review after. That would be great. 

Michael Rebell: Give them the title again, Louisa.

Luisa Sanchez: Why Kentucky Students Are Suing the State: Classroom, Courts and the Constitution. 

Christopher Saldaña: Thank you Luisa and Michael for being on this month's podcast. As always, we hope you're safe and healthy. And remember, for the latest analysis on education policy, you should subscribe to the NEPC newsletter at nepc.colorado.edu.

To close this month's podcast, we're gonna leave you with a special song called We Believe in Local Control, which was published on April Fool's Day. Written by NEPC Director Kevin Welner, composed by Jasper Gimpel with background vocals by Leah Welner. We hope you enjoy it.